Thanks to everyone who participated in person or online for our first public meeting, “State of the Lakes Basin”! As promised, here’s a place for you to turn in your “homework assignment.” In the comment box below, share with us your vision for the future of the Lakes Basin. Here are some ideas to get your thoughts flowing:
- How will people experience the Lakes Basin?
- What kinds of facilities, opportunities, and amenities will be in the Lakes Basin?
- What are those opportunities and amenities?
If you don’t feel comfortable posting your ideas here, you’re always welcome to e-mail them to us at labss@mltpa.org or snail-mail them in to:
Jon Kazmierski, Recreation Staff Officer
Inyo National Forest Mammoth Ranger Station
PO Box 148
Mammoth Lakes, CA 93546-0148
Have fun and don’t be shy! Please also encourage your friends and neighbors to share their dreams as well. We’ll be discussing everyone’s suggestions at the next two meetings.
If you like, you can download PDFs of the maps we had mounted on the walls of the Westin from the LABSS Web page and reference them as you put together your vision. Feel free to print them out and draw on them, or use Adobe’s Sticky Note tool to mark up the electronic file. You can submit map-related comments to the e-mail address and postal address noted above.
On a final note, please respect the comments posted by your fellow Lakes Basin-ers. While it is perfectly appropriate to hold differing viewpoints, and we welcome the diversity of opinions presented by the Mammoth Lakes community, we will refrain from publishing remarks that are offensive or abusive. Please be courteous and stay positive. Thanks!
As I said at the first meeting the overriding goal should be to respect the community of people who live and work in the Lakes Basin every summer.
My personal “druthers” include:
Maintaining the basin as the world class fishing experience that it has been since Alpers Trout were introduced. And being sure that FREE access to that amenity is maintained for everyone.
The shuttle service needs to go to Lake George because that is where the largest number of beyond-the-lakes hikers start out and it has the worst parking throughout the peak months of July and August. That may require taking out the hairpin turn-but that’s doable. Traffic really works relatively well throughout the rest of the upper basin, but there are a few places where an occasional tree removal and minor widening would enhance the ability of large RVs to move around the lakes.
Campgrounds are the place where many future homeowners and renters in the downtown get their inftro to the area. Don’t reduce the number of spaces.
Canoes, Kayaks and now paddleboards are ever more popular. We could use more areas for them to launch such as the cartop area at the back of Gull Lake. More access with parking areas of a half dozen or so parking spots like the one near the bridge between Mary and Mamie would be good and serve floattubers as well.
Run the shuttle later during the long summer days. Twice this summer , I’ve given rides down to town to visitors who thought service until 6 meant just that, but arrived at the Barrett’s Landing stop to find that the last shuttle left at 5:36. 7 pm would be better anyway.
Recognize that family fishermen , kayakers, canoeists, paddleboarders, and floattubers bring a lot of equipment to the Basin, from folding tables and chairs to icechests to rods and kids toys. You can enhance mobility with public transit but you cannot EVER prohibit cars from the lakes basin without defeating the goal of making it accessible to all forms of recreation-which I hope is the goal of this study. Your biggest problem is to balance all the uses. I forsee a marked increase in cars in the Basin next year since families with younger children already are driving uphill and either riding around the lakes on the relative flat or sendeing most of the family downhill while someone drives back. I wrote an article for The Sheet several years ago on an estimate of the maximum number of people who could fish in the basin. That needs to be updated to consider adding the maximum number who can bike the trails.
Many more portapotties or pit toilets will be needed, especially in the fall after the campground crews start locking up the restrooms they have to clean. (incidentally, I hope that you interviewed all the campground hosts in your survey.)
Good luck on this, I frankly don’t trust processes that depend this heavily on technology-although I understand it looks great in the “grantsmanship” process.
For the next round try scheduling everything no later than Sept. so you can actually involve more people onsite and face to face. Jim Thorpe
General Comments
• The lakes basin, in addition to being a wonderful scenic and recreation area, is the watershed for Mammoth Lakes therefore we would like to see the following regulations in-place:
1. Prohibit gasoline powered boats/vehicles of any kind in all of the lakes. All other kinds, including electric do not contribute significantly to water or noise pollution. There seems to be some kind of informal restrictions now, since I have not seen any that I can think of and I was told that gasoline powered boats were not permitted on Lake Mary. However that may have been referring not being able to rent them at the lake.
2. Lead based sinkers should be prohibited if there are available substitutes. This prohibition could be relaxed if water quality studies show the lead content of the water in the lakes is no higher than any other drinking water source. However, considering the vast number of lead weights that must be sitting on the bottom of the lakes, I would think the lead content would be higher than normal.
Transportation
• Formal parking area are difficult to find in the basin resulting in a hodge-podge of vehicles parking wherever there is open space, regardless of the impact on adjacent vegetation (such as tree routes). Almost all of the lakes (except Horseshoe and George) suffer from lack of formal parking. This problem seems to be sporadic, from my observations, occurring mainly on weekends and holidays. I would like to suggest two avenues:
1. A study be conducted to examine the impact of providing additional parking at roadside locations (many currently exist) and prohibit the general park-wherever-you-can-find-a-spot system we have currently.
2. Many areas, including Yosemite, areas in Yellowstone, and elsewhere provide outlying parking and frequent shuttles. This not only reduces the parking problems, but greatly reduces the noise, air pollution, and safety problems posed by cruising vehicles. Although Mammoth provides shuttles currently from town to the lakes, the frequency needs to be increased within the basin itself. Additional hard-surface off-highway walking and biking trails connecting the various lakes are also needed and should help in reducing vehicular traffic. Of course, consideration must be given to the handicapped but there are not enough of them to contribute to the problem. I think a cost tradeoff between providing sufficient additional parking and the use of additional shuttles will show that the shuttles are less expensive and more effective. This has been shown in Yosemite, Yellowstone, and elsewhere.
Trails
• I have encountered numerous user trails that seem to be oblivious to the impact they are having on adjacent tree, such as root damage. Many of these trails parallel each other in a rather hap-hazard way, particularly around George and between George and Mamie. Many others provide access not otherwise available and are thus quite useful. I think a study of such trails should be conducted to determine which should be formalized and which should be closed off. Guidelines to hikers should be provided at trailheads. The admonition of “don’t shortcut switchbacks” seems to do some good, although there will always be people who will ignore any restrictions on their movements, but from my observations, the majority are either not aware of the damage or are following someone else’s footsteps.
• Although the normal 7 ½ USGS maps provide trails, most are out of date and only show the “official” trails. These maps are not inexpensive. I believe the town could develop their own localized trail maps of the lakes basin and sell them to offset the cost. A volunteer with a GPS can do wonders in providing detail trail information, which with the help of Google Earth and/or Google Maps, can be produced as a trail map.
• If you travel much around Europe, you will find that off highway paved bike/pedestrian lanes parallel most streets and highways. Mammoth has done much with the town trails and the one from town to the twin lakes. These need to be continued wherever there is a vehicle road in the basin.
Fire Defensible Space
• I certainly agree that there has to be defensible space around structures that are threats to general public safety, however I hope that does not develop into clearing everything for 100 feet around a structure, underbrush yes, but developed tree with much care. After all, people come to Mammoth for the beauty, and much of that is the beauty of the trees – as Joyce Kilmer wrote.
Water
• Commercial developments in the Lakes Basin (and elsewhere for that matter) should be required to mitigate any environmental degradation caused by the development and be responsible for proving there is sufficient water available for the development, or develop additional sources if there are not. No taxpayer funds should be spent on infrastructure required to support commercial developments. The Town has been entirely too lax in their unending pursuit of more development to require much of anything from developers, or to consider the environmental impact on the area or current residents.
In regards to the trail maps, there are some inexpensive ones that give pretty good and accurate coverage of the lakes basin, such as the Tom Harrison and the Mammoth Lakes Basin Trails maps. Also, I have worked with MLTPA to GPS all the trails in the basin, which are all the official, equestrian, and use trails that you see on those maps in the meetings. It’s just a matter of taking the next step to get all the maps on the same page.
Hi, nice event last night.
First let me say that I am not writing this as a representative of Mammoth Mountain Ski Area. I am writing as an interested member of the community.
My vision is: The lakes basin will remain a place of inspiring scenic beauty and grandeur, a celebration of the Sierra Nevada for generations to come.
My mission is: to preserve the scenic beauty and grandeur of the lakes basin within an environment of increased demand.
For what it’s worth I offer you some additional thoughts.
1) I do not think we should jump directly to mandatory park and ride. I think we should experiment with voluntary park and ride and improved parking options before going mandatory. Many users drive their own vehicles because they are either carrying a bunch of “stuff”: canoes, kayaks, float tubes, baby strollers, etc. Or, they don’t have much time. They are out for a 20 minute walk around the lake during lunch. If we institute mandatory park and ride we are essentially cutting off access to those users.
2) Clearly the problems we have in the basin result from increased volume. We could improve the experienced for all by adding some more bathrooms, upgrading info boards, developing some “pocket Parking lots” in areas that are already impacted like the borrow pit and the area across from pack station. Keep in mind that this is really a two month a year problem: 4th of July until Labor Day. I’m not saying there aren’t other issues in other seasons but these 2 months are the big “volume” months.
3) I don’t think we should assume that it is impossible to mix uses. Mountain bikes and horses are probably incompatible but there is no reason that hikers and horses and hikers and bikers can’t mutually coexist. It’s kind of fun to watch horses go by.
4) I also think we should continue to allow roadside parking within reason. We shouldn’t just rule it out. People park on the roadside so that they can conveniently lug their “stuff” to their fishing spot. It isn’t a random decision. We should improve some of the roadside areas so that they are safer, like the pull out on the right going up to George.
5) I think we should continue to study the idea of making a one way loop around Lake Mary. I don’t buy the argument that one way will double traffic. It will certainly put all the traffic into one lane but if your studies show the hourly vehicle rate to be 100 vehicles per hour, changing it to one way will not bump that up to 200 vehicles per hour. It’s just going to put everyone in the same lane and open up the near lane for walkers, bikers, and strollers. It’s an idea worth study. It really makes me nervous driving past Crystal Crag. There are a lot of kids there and people go too fast.
6) I am not in favor of more signs. My experience here at the ski area is that the more signs you have the less people read them. I am in favor of better signs.
7) If I have to walk my dog on a leash I’m okay with that. The volume problem applies to dogs too. As I said last night, there is a big difference between 20 or 30 dogs and 200 or 300. Not all dogs are friendly and not all dog owners are responsible.
You know, there is so much that we all can say about the lakes basin. The bottom line is we love it, residents and visitors alike and we want to preserve it for everyone.
Thanks for inviting our comments.
Jack
I’d generally agree with Jack except on the one way. While I wouldn’t say it would double traffic, people do have to return from their destinations. While sightseeing tourist might make a single loop. If the road is one way starting at Pine City, everyone who goes to campground must go around the lake to return to Lake Mary road and everyone who goes to Lake George must go all the way around the Lake to get to their destination. I think his point that the problem is reklatively short term-July 4 thru Labor Day is pretty valid-although a lot depends on how early the snow subsides enough to open the Basin.
A lot of these questions can be answered better with some quantification. Since uses tend to cluster around peak times, Just how many people could a shuttle handle per hour?? Similarly the oneway issue can be clarified by looki8ng at the distances users would travel each way to and from major points
such as Crystal Crag, the campgrounds, Barret’s Lake George, etc.
My dream for the Lakes Basin would be to keep it much as it is now. I love that I can live in Mammoth and have easy and quick access to my “backyard.” I like the somewhat random nature of the basin and would hate the experience to be overly codified and restricted.
This doesn’t mean I can’t envision improvements. The trampled terrain around Lake Mary, Horseshoe and Mamie could be restored to natural vegetation with some lakeside hiking trails delineated. More frequent shuttle service could cut down on traffic congestion. Interpretive signs would enhance the visitor experience.
A bike trail around the basin would be a nice amenity, but not at the expense of two-way traffic. I’m opposed to a one-way loop, since I think it will result in more traffic circling instead of vehicles going directly to their Basin destination. The Horseshoe Lake parking lot could be downsized, since only a fraction of it is commonly used. Alternatively, this large space could be utilized as an “orientation center” with interpretive kiosks . Perhaps some smaller (5-10 space) lots could be added at appropriate spots in the basin to reduce “parking creativity.”
Limiting access via shuttle may work well in a remote location like Yosemite or Red’s Meadow (and I support shuttle access in these circumstances), but it would be a disservice to Mammoth’s residents to force us on busses to access the terrain that makes our community special. If we’re unable to get to the Lakes Basin for a quick hike after work or when we have time constraints, our Mammoth lifestyle will be seriously degraded.
Since I’m dreaming, wouldn’t it be great to have a lakeside restaurant at Pokenobe where you could have lunch on the deck overlooking the lake? A short trail from the Lake George campground down to Lake Mary could lessen the parking problem at Lake George. Finally, enhanced signage at the Mammoth Consolidated Mine could give visitors a better sense of our local history.
I think the Lakes Basin experience is great right now, as do most of the visitors I’ve spoken to. Implementing minor changes to make things better is a good idea, but I’d hate to see a major revamping of the area that destroys its essential character.
Lesley Bruns
We were impressed with the first meeting we attended of the mltpa and unfortunately the second one slipped by with out our attendance.
We have the following concerns that we would like to point out below:
The lower lakes basin road that goes up to Tamarack Lodge gets very busy in the summer. We like to know if anyone has thought of installing speed bumps on the road up to the lodge parell to Lower Twin Lakes. Many small children run out between the cars and the drivers are either on their cell phones or looking at the lake for a spot to fish.
Also we would like to see mono filament receptacles along this spot. This is one of the most heavily fished areas in the lakes basin. My usual routine in the spring and or fall is to make a special trash run to pick up everything left behind. I pick up many triple hooks with bait still on them, which is a dangerous situation for small children and or dogs.
Would it be possible to advise us when you get close to the actual forest reduction in our area? We are located on the North side of Tamarack Lodge and are the only two forest permit cabins in that area.
Our grandson was involved in a minor accident on the bike trail with someone who had small children and a stroller. It is unclear to us exactly what the trail is for, besides the bikers and joggers. You have people on bikes, you have people walking with small children, you have people pushing strollers or jogging with baby carts, you have old people people on walkers, you have runners and skateboarders! Some how a method will have to be created that will put some order to this confusion.
Is it possible to get a detailed map of what your plans are regarding the bike path and our driveway? You have a situation here that includes:
1) Road into and out of Tamarack Lodge
2) Road into and out of our cabin (Number 16 Twin Lakes Tract)
3) We are only 10 to 20 feet from the egress and ingress to the cabin next door
As you can see, there is a great deal going on with-in a short space.
I think that the Bike Path will be a great success due to your effort and we are sure that both locals and visitors will enjoy this improvement.
THanks for hosting the meetings. I was on the webinar for the 2nd meeting and
just wanted to clarify my points (since I was pretty unprepared), perhaps for
the next meeting discussion sake.
BEAR AWARE (and wildlife awareness)
Problem: visitors not aware of wildlife issues.
Solution: more attention grabbing notices, sings at campgrounds, trailheads….
etc.
Solution: hand-outs similar to the Fish and Game’s “Keep Me Wild” handouts which
can be made available at campgrounds, trailheads, handouts with other brochures
(camp maps, hotel info package… etc.).
Solution: stricter enforcement around camp grounds on leaving out coolers…
etc. Perhaps even fines if possible.
DOGS
Problem: conflicts between dog owners and other visitors, dog mess… etc.
Solution: provide poop bags at trailheads, info boards, campgrounds….etc. This
encourages owners who would otherwise dont pick up after their dogs.
Solution: unfortunately the only sure way to keep dogs out of trouble is for
them to be on leash. In heavy traffic area, this is the only way to avoid
conflicts.
Solution: more prominent signs to alert people to pick up after their pooch.
BATHING IN LAKES
Problem: people bathe in the lakes (with soap and other pollutants). I know
people also wipe their butts in the lakes too.
Solution: fines?
Solution: signs and notices at important locations, telling visitors the damage
of their actions.
OFF TRAIL TRAVEL
Problem: people wonder off and make their own trails killing vegetation…. etc.
Solution: again, more prominent signs and notices at important locations,
telling visitors to stay on trails.
My wife and I own a cabin in the Lake Mary Tract in the Lakes Basin. We have had this cabin for 30 years. I am one who would like to see as little change as possible, but maintaining its scenic beauty and ecology. However, there are some changes and improvements that must be made in order to preserve the Lakes Basin and make it appear the same as it always has. Otherwise the influx of more people will cause changes which will degrade the area.
TRAFFIC:
1. The Shuttle has been a good idea. It is still a bit awkward. An additional Basin only shuttle might make it more convenient. This is sometimes referred to as the park & ride. With one or two parking lots (one at the dump site by Horseshoe and possibly one hidden in the trees across from the Stables), we could see a lessening of traffic around the lakes, and less competition for the parking that is available. This service needs to be optional and free.
2. One-way traffic around Lake Mary. This was an idea that was thoroughly discussed in the Forest Service Transportation Committee a few years back. It was scrapped because there were too many negatives: a) the part by Crystal Crag Lodge has to be two way because otherwise to leave one driveway one might have to go all around the lake to get to the other. b) Traffic past any one spot would increase up to the point of doubling. The one place that would see the biggest increase is in front of Crystal Crag Lodge. That is the place where you do not want more traffic because there is the most foot traffic as well. c) There would be more pollution from autos because they would have to drive farther. d) The solution is overkill because the traffic is not overly heavy except for the July 4th and Labor Day weekends and the last two weeks of July and the first two weeks of August.
3. There is a possibility of making another way out of the Lake George parking lot. This should be investigated. The Barrett family used to own land east of the present road which I was told was suitable for a road. Then the present road could be the way in and the new road the way out. This would not cause any increase in traffic but relieve the congestion on the road.
TRAILS:
1. Signs with distances to all the near destinations of a trail. There are spots where interpretive centers (large signs) would be helpful. Horseshoe is an example.
2. Alternate trails where the use damages the environment should be blocked off and disguised as natural. Signs to keep visitors on the right trails should be posted.
3. Doggie bags should be at the beginnings of all local trails to encourage dog owners to clean up after their pets.
4. I think a Town-produced trail map of the Basin (or the whole town) would be a good idea. Also trail maps of the Basin on signs at trailheads would be a good idea.
AMENITIES:
No new developments need to be built except possibly an upgraded picnic ground at Horseshoe Lake. However, all the present facilities should be used to their fullest potential. One such facility is the Lake Mary Store which is no longer a store but just a marina. It should be a store and a restaurant besides a marina as it historically was. That permittee is not living up to his permit.
ENVIRONMENT:
The trails need to be maintained in order to minimize erosion. I think the Water District should recommend remedies any other water quality issues. I think that places to put used up fishing line should be put around the shores of the lakes.
WILDLIFE:
I think that information about wildlife in general and Bears in particular should be given to every lodge guest and every camper as well as posted on signs at the trailheads and shuttle stops. It should be an infraction if a camper stores food outside the provided bear boxes.
My opinion and observations regarding the future of the Lakes Basin
I do a lot of cross skiing and hiking in the Lakes Basin and my observation is that most of the damage to the area is due to the early plowing of the road. Last spring the road was plowed with most walls from 6’ to 10’ high making it difficult for man or beast to cross from side to side.
• Plowing of the road too early causes damage to the road, curbs and signs due to no snow staking and visibility of obstacles. Snow staking the road would be a dangerous obstacle during ski season.
• Early snow removal also causes extensive damage due to additional run off of water in the shoulder area of the roadway requiring costly road maintenance.
Additional problems
• Resort owners plowing their leased property and causing additional run off into roads and into the lakes and road shoulders. These leases and the road plowing were to be done 2 weeks prior to the opening of the road to the public so that they can do repair work. This has moved to the point that the resorts open and rent cabins and renters can then drive on the closed road that is not open to the public.
• Emergency access to the lakes in a timely manner, if commercial operators are operating the closed road area.
• Bathrooms and trash removal should be provided, signed and maintained at each Lake and at the gate where the plowing ends; this area is the water supply for the town and should be protected. Many people will leave trash at the dumpster even if they are locked or inaccessible.
• Related to water protection: I’ve always wondered about the practice of plowing and blowing of snow from the road onto Twin Lakes and the early plowing of the cabin roads at Tamarack Lodge. The large snow ramps onto the Lake from the road and resort could spread unwanted road contaminated runoff and debris into the lake.
• Mountain bikes on Mammoth pass coming from the back side of Mammoth Mountain into the Ansel Adams wilderness and traveling into the Red’s Meadow or Lakes Basin areas. Problems being erosion and impact on wildlife.
Additional concerns
• I am concerned that there may be a suggestion of making the Lakes basin an access fee system like Red’s Meadow while still allowing the resort and cabin lessees to hold leases
• If that were to happen the private leases should be eliminated to avoid a private residence club on public land. The elimination then would provide more area for camping areas and additional public use areas.
• The commercial leases that provide food, supplies and boat rentals should be the only leases to be allowed.
• The cross country ski area operates out of a manufactured housing trailer and is removed during the summer. The Tamarack Lodge could be used as an interpretative center for the visitors to the lakes basin.
I would like to submit a few comments after attending portions of two meetings.
I am NOT in favor of the following:
One way traffic on any portion of Lake Mary road or the loop around Lake Mary.
However, a one way system for busses should be considered.
More signage and maps.
Additional trails or marking unmarked trails.
Marking trails to climbing areas.
Publishing directions to climbing in the area.
Random placement of climbing anchors in the Lakes Basin
Additional Plaques or benches recognizing individuals or groups.
(Historical or natural resource information plaques may be considered.)
I AM in favor of considering the following:
Improving the trail around Lake George. It is too dangerous for older people and some cabin owners.
Parking across from the Pack Station.
Placement of fisherpeople trash bins or receptacles’.
I am in favor of fines for littering and carving trees.
Additional restrooms
Additional parking along some roadways.
Improving the road through Coldwater Campground
Making a two way road to the Trailhead Parking
Addition of detailed map and information at the pull-out parking near the first Twin Lakes bridge spillway.
Why isn’t there a pullout for cars on the downhill side of Lake Mary road above Valentine Reserve.
This is one of the most scenic views in the area and many people want to stop and take a picture.
The path is in the way !!!!
Improving day use areas at Horseshoe Lake.
Why are people bagging their dog poop and leaving the bag? FINE
Better information about the CO2 at Horseshoe Lake.
Skull and Crossbone signs, scares people.
Better markings near and throughout the Consolidated Gold Mine.
Question: Would this lead to vandalism?
Improve dirt trail to connect Horseshoe Lake with Mamie & Lake George.
Not in favor of paving trail.
Mark a trail from the Pit at Horseshoe Lake that connects to the trail up to Dave’s and down to Twin Lakes